tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post2445020069854640022..comments2023-10-23T08:56:50.127-06:00Comments on Angry by Choice: Suffering: Does god help?The Loraxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361004494346338824noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post-12841198247598635052010-07-26T10:31:06.921-06:002010-07-26T10:31:06.921-06:00Without a doubt, many of the "evils" tha...Without a doubt, many of the "evils" that some are so quick to condemn are considered "evil" due to society and thousands of years of conditioned response to certain behavior...and this can be different in different societies.<br /><br />Question: Does the idea of God allowing one person out of 100 to live (or killing/allowing 99 to die) nauseate you more than 99 dying of random chance in a plane crash?<br /><br />Yes, "Gods plan" is a cop-out in that it cannot be proven/disproven. However, I fail to see how "shit happens" is any different, though it could be due to my lack of understanding, naivete, etc.<br /><br />Thanks for forcing me to think.<br /><br />CalebCalebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13546745497336948226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post-2639431982111071572010-07-08T14:56:47.325-06:002010-07-08T14:56:47.325-06:00I have to admit up front that from my perspective ...I have to admit up front that from my perspective evil is strictly a social construct. People are social creatures and our overall survival has depended on us being successful in our social interactions. We aren't special this way, ants are social, so are wolves, and gazelle, and chimps, and numerous fish, and an uncountable number of microbes, etc. etc. etc. What we do have is a big brain that helps with these social interactions.<br /><br />Murder is bad, dare I say evil. This was true for people before a fictitious Moses brought down some fabled stone tablets. (If it wasn't true, then how did all those non-Jewish and pre-Moses Jewish people survive?). In a tribe, if a member starts murdering other members then other members might decide it is in their best interest to remove the murderer from the tribe (big rock to the head works well).<br /><br />Other "evils" are societally dependent. In the US, a large number of people think that homosexuality is evil and should in fact be an imprisonable offense. In other societies, fear of the gay is not such a big deal.<br /><br />Polygamy, evil not evil? Pick a society.<br /><br />Slavery, evil not evil? Again pick a society. Mason-evil, Dixon-not evil<br /><br />Vandalism, evil not evil? Pick a society. Chrissy Saterfield thinks its heroic if it backs up her religious bigotry. Others think its a crime.<br /><br />Now that being said. I find the "god's plan" response to be a cop-out. There is no way to support or refute that position. In your description of Job's kids you go immediately for reason #1 They pissed off God aka its was their own damned fault by using "they were sinners" response. The problem being as you note that Job was too, so why did he live? Why weren't the people down the street killed instead? Regardless, the book of Job is fairly clear, the kids died because God made a bet with one of his buddies (often referred to as Satan), not because they sinned or even because Job sinned. In fact, they whole came about because Job was so damn pious not because of anything he did wrong.<br /><br />The idea that God killed the kids to teach Job a lesson. You do not see the problem inherent in that argument? God saved me from that fiery plane wreck and not the other 165 people for some as yet not understood reason. People like that make me nauseous. What about the kids or the other 165 people? I guess they are just fodder for the lucky bastards. Maybe that's why God favors the greedy thieving take advantage-of-others people. They get the best health care, live in the best neighborhoods, etc. Now if God can only provide us with a few thousand more sweatshop employees, I feel like I deserve some new cheap sneakers. <br /><br />Again thanks for putting your opinion/thoughts out there!The Loraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361004494346338824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post-67018717384411179352010-07-08T08:27:13.693-06:002010-07-08T08:27:13.693-06:00*With the caveat that a blog comment wall is not t...*With the caveat that a blog comment wall is not the best place for a discussion of a somewhat philosophical nature*<br /><br />In my mind, a large difference exists between "my" #5 and the idea that "there is no god, and shit happens". Fundamentally, my #5 represents the idea that suffering, evil, etc. happens because it somehow fits into god's plan. Take the book of Job for example. While the book may have been written as an analogy to the suffering the Jewish people were facing at the time, rather than as an account of a particular individual's suffering, it often makes me pause and think "Well what about Job's kids?" (Dead...house fell on them if I remember right) Now, the kids had sinned (we are all human, and all deserve a collapsing house...) but so had Job, and he wasn't killed outright. At the end of the day, I come to the conclusion, that the death of his family served to emphasize God's power, humble Job, etc., not to punish the kids themselves. So their suffering had a place in God's global plan. <br /><br />Is this discernible from the idea of "shit happens and there is no g/God?" Probably not, at least when viewed by our limited imagination and intelligence. <br /><br />Wow that got longer than intended, and is not as eloquent or informative as it could be...<br /><br />Thanks for the response.<br /><br />Caleb<br /><br />By the way...anyone who believes in an omnipotent and omniscient god and does not believe that "evil" (as we view it) starts with Him is an idiot.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13546745497336948226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post-69458322815932763072010-05-30T17:10:45.956-06:002010-05-30T17:10:45.956-06:00Caleb, the 4 I stated I took from Ehrmans book. Bu...Caleb, the 4 I stated I took from Ehrmans book. But I wonder, how is your #5 any different than there is no god and shit happens? For instance, in he herd a gazelles, one is getting eaten by the lion, hey don't straws, they run for it. The weak or old often gets eaten (sucks for them, but no universal purposes needs to be invoked just statistics. But the smartest, fastest gazelle might trip over a branch, step in a hole, be fighting a cold and get eaten. God may have done it, or maybe shit just happens.<br /><br />Thanks for posting!The Loraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361004494346338824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8448663046375322498.post-20632084617334231952010-04-29T08:40:48.615-06:002010-04-29T08:40:48.615-06:00#5. We suffer because god wants us to. Not necess...#5. We suffer because god wants us to. Not necessarily because we have done anything wrong (cause and effect suffering) but simply because it fulfills some global or universal purpose. Personally, I feel this may be the most true based upon our limited human perspective. And it pisses me off. I still believe its partial truth, but it doesn't mean I like it, in the same way that someone falling 30 stories might hate gravity.<br /><br />I look forward to reading more thought provoking posts. Glad I stumbled upon this.<br /><br />CalebCalebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13546745497336948226noreply@blogger.com